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Originally Posted by StereoXGirl /img/forum/go_quote.gif My dad has a friend who is originally from Canada. That friend's dad died in Canada waiting to receive treatment for cancer.
Then his mom got sick. They traveled to Florida to get her treatment rather than wait. Afterwards, she went back to Canada, but the friend decided to stay here (just because he liked Florida).

That's not propaganda. The Canadian healthcare system seems to work fine...until you get really sick.

Which makes me ask:

1. What kind of Cancer did he have?

2. What stage?

 
This is a very interesting thread. I agree with Carolyn and I think we are fed crazy information that isnt true. The bottom line is that all of this has to do with money and if the insurance companies cant make money off of this then they will spread whatever they can to put fear in people.

 
I was so offended when I read the articles on this the other day! Especially the parts that likened us and our healthcare to a third world country, and also the part that said Brits have bad teeth! Such generalisation is beyond ridiculous. Every country's policies will have both good and bad parts to them and to condemn ours so brutally was extremely inappropriate! It often seems to me, and I know other who share this opinion, that the rest of the world looks at the UK as a joke country, a country to mock and belittle at every opportunity. I don't know how our standing in the world has fallen so much but people just seem to disregard the history of this country and everything it has done. I know I'm getting a bit off topic but, to me, this is just the latest attempt to bash my country. I'm very proud to be British and things like this grate my nerves!

 
the NHS works very well. I have a father who works in for the NHS and a mother whose life was saved by it. I can't fault it for us over here- but I doubt that the US is ready for such a scheme, especially with a population so large and with such different incomes, and the existing attitudes to taxes.

I think some sort of government involvement at this stage is a very good idea, and I support Obama's efforts completely. There's a lot of people who in the US who simply can't afford medical treatment, which in a way (in my opinion) is a violation of some sort of human rights.

 
Originally Posted by Dragonfly /img/forum/go_quote.gif With all due respect, this is exactly the kind of fear mongering propaganda I referred to in my original post.
The reality is, if he died that quickly of cancer, he most likely had cancer in his body for a very long period, before he ever sought medical treatment. By then it was too late. Perhaps it is too easy to lay blame on a system rather than the patient themselves.

Having worked in a cancer centre in Ontario for a number of years, if we cannot treat a patient quickly enough in one cancer centre, we will relocate the patient to another cancer treaatent facility. In some cases, the patient will even go to the US for cancer care, and the sending province will pick up the tab.

Since we are talking about people we have never met - and the health care they recived - let's mention the American Della Reece.

Did you know that she came to Canada in 1979 for Neurosurgery? She suffered a nearly fatal brain aneursm after taping The Tonight Show.

She made a full recovery after two operations by noted neurosurgeon Dr. Charles Drake at University Hospital in London, Ontario.

Now why would she fly all the way to Canada for live saving surgery if "Canada's Healthcare system works fine - until you get really sick?"

So because he died while waiting for treatment...it must be his fault? I don't like how quick you were to dismiss what I had to say simply because I was unable to meet him before he died. Relating personal experiences of a family friend and his family is hardly propaganda.
As far as Della Reece, that was her personal decision, and we have no way of knowing why she made the decision she did (other than to meet her and ask her). Assuming that she went to Canada because Canada's healthcare system is superior is just that, an assumption.

 
I don't really know whats going on in the news about healthcare at the moment so excuse my ignorance but I haven't really been watching the news properly in the last few days, i'm guessing Obama is trying to set up some sort of NHS service for Americams?

Which if that's the case I have to say it's a great idea, i've always thought it's terrible how you don't have something like that over in the US and everyone has to rely on health insurance. Now I admit i do not know everything about how the systme works over there but I gather if you are diagnosed with a serious illness like Cancer or a born with medical problems unless you have the money/health insurance to cover the cost you don't get treated? please correct with if i'm wrong but i remeber watching a documentary once about the US healthcare and comparing it to ours here in the UK & canada and was shocked by some of the things mentioned.

Now i'm not saying our NHS service is perfect and there are improvements that could be made as with most things nothing is perfect. But I think its a brilliant system we have in place, as somebody with a number of medical conditions who needs alot of medication I am very thankful for it, I wonder how somebody in my circumstances gets on with treatment & medication needed in the USA, from what I've heard I think they need to pay for all medication even though it is needed to keep the person alive, this to me is just rediculous and like Lucy mentioned surely some kind of violation of human rights, so if you do not have the money to pay it's tough you die?. We pay (if you are working and the medication in most cases is not needed for a long term life threating condition) £7.20 for a prescription otherwise you will recieve prescriptions for free.

I'd love nothing more than to move to the US but because of my health and the way the healthcare sytem out there works it will never be an option for me unless I wom millions on the lottery and had enough to cover health costs, its hard enough even trying to get travel insurance to visit for a holiday due to how much the medical bills can be.

As I said im not completely clued up to how things work with your health insurance or what exactly is going on with this subject coming up quite a bit on the internet lately so if anyone wants to feel me in please do so
smile.gif


 
Originally Posted by StereoXGirl /img/forum/go_quote.gif So because he died while waiting for treatment...it must be his fault? I don't like how quick you were to dismiss what I had to say simply because I was unable to meet him before he died. Relating personal experiences of a family friend and his family is hardly propaganda.
As far as Della Reece, that was her personal decision, and we have no way of knowing why she made the decision she did (other than to meet her and ask her). Assuming that she went to Canada because Canada's healthcare system is superior is just that, an assumption.

I think any discussion of cancer can be very complex and there are many details (such as type, stage etc) that cannot be easily summarized or used as an indictment against the Canadian system.
It is my understanding that Canada does have a shortage of doctors in some cases as some doctors might have chosen to practice in the US where they can make more money. But this situation is no different from many rural areas in the US. Some doctors may choose to go to more populous areas as their earning power may be greater.

 
"That's not propaganda. The Canadian healthcare system seems to work fine...until you get really sick."

This is propaganda and slander - our system works just fine...especially when one gets really sick.

"So because he died while waiting for treatment...it must be his fault? I don't like how quick you were to dismiss what I had to say simply because I was unable to meet him before he died. Relating personal experiences of a family friend and his family is hardly propaganda.

As far as Della Reece, that was her personal decision, and we have no way of knowing why she made the decision she did (other than to meet her and ask her). Assuming that she went to Canada because Canada's healthcare system is superior is just that, an assumption."

I never said Canada's health care system is superior to the United States Health care system. And I would never be that ignorant as to say negative things about another country's health care system without educating myself first of the facts.

 
It would appear that most of the democrat senators that are opposing this health care bill have actually received millions of dollars from the health insurance industry.

I really hope that Obama gets this right. The Americans have the possibility to look on the history of all the different systems and hopefully take the best bits and be able to modify the bad bits. They won't get rid of the bad bits because there is no such thing as a perfect system but lets hope it there will be ways to remedy all difficulties.

 
I am free to disagree/dislike the idea of a socialized health care system just as much as anyone else is free to think Canada's health care and NHS are the best things since sliced bread. Please do not resort to thinly veiled personal attacks.

 
Originally Posted by Aprill /img/forum/go_quote.gif Which makes me ask:
1. What kind of Cancer did he have?

2. What stage?

I honestly don't remember. Obviously it was an aggressive enough cancer and far enough along that he died while waiting the 9 months for treatment.
 
Originally Posted by Aprill /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am a mod/jr.admin and this thread wont be locked. There is nothing wrong with having a conversation I agree, there is nothing wrong with having a conversation, but some people are getting a little heated over it and I believe in nipping things in the bud
eusa_whistle.gif
 
Yes, and it is quite sad....I think someone will be in here to close it. Its sad you cant have an adult conversation on this website.

 
The US government can barely handle the medicaid/medicare clients they have, I have no faith in my government. I want them out of my life, not in every aspect of it.

 
Originally Posted by Aprill /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, and it is quite sad....I think someone will be in here to close it. Its sad you cant have an adult conversation on this website. Agreed. We should be allowed to have mature conversations and not have it locked up whenever a mod gets uncomfortable with the subject. If we cant have a decent conversation online then I dont think we can in person.
Anyway, Im interested on hearing all sides of this subject.

 
Let's look at the wording of the actual bill...Not compare what is theoretical to what systems work in other countries.

***************

This is a letter written by Dr. Stephen Fraser to Senator Bayh. If you would like to send it on to your Congressman, he says to feel free to copy it and send it around to our friends and to senators and representatives.

July 23, 2009

Senator Bayh,

I ask you respectfully and as a patriotic American to look at the following troubling lines that I have read in the bill. You cannot possibly believe that these proposals are in the best interests of the country and our fellow citizens.

Page 22 of the HC Bill: Mandates that the Govt will audit books of all employers that self insure!!

Page 30 Sec 123 of HC bill – THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

Page 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill: YOUR HEALTH CARE IS RATIONED!!!

Page 42 of HC Bill: The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your HC Benefits for you. You have no choice!

Page 50 Section 152 in HC bill: HC will be provided to ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise

Page 58 HC Bill: Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Health card will be issued!

Page 59 HC Bill lines 21-24: Govt will have direct access to your banks accounts for elective funds transfer.

Page 65 Sec 164: is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community organizations: (ACORN).

Page 84 Sec 203 HC bill: Govt mandates ALL benefit packages for private HC plans in the Exchange.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration your Healthcare!

Page 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill: Govt mandates linguistic appropriate services. Example – Translation: illegal aliens.

Page 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18: The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & AmeriCorps to sign up individuals for Govt HC plan.

Page 85 Line 7 HC Bill: Specifications of Benefit Levels for Plans. AARP members – your Health care WILL be rationed.

Page 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill: Medicaid Eligible Individuals will be automatically enrolled in Medicaid.. No choice.

Page 124 lines 24-25 HC: No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No “judicial review” against Govt Monopoly.

Page 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill: Doctors/ American Medical Association – The Govt will tell YOU what you can make! (Salary)

Page 145 Line 15-17: An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into public option plan. NO CHOICE!

Page 126 Lines 22-25: Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.

Page 149 Lines 16-24: ANY Employer with payroll 401k & above who does not provide public option pays 8% tax on all payrolls.

Page 150 Lines 9-13: Business’s with payroll btw 251k & 401k who doesn’t provide public option pays 2-6% tax on all payroll.

Page 167 Lines 18-23: ANY individual who doesn’t have acceptable HC according to Govt will be taxed 2.5% of income.

Page 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill: Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from individual taxes. (Americans will pay)

Page 195 HC Bill: Officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access to ALL Americans finances /personal records.

Page 203 Line 14-15 HC: “The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax” Yes, it says that!

Page 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill: Govt will reduce physician services for Medicaid Seniors, low income and poor are affected.

Page 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill: Doctors, doesn’t matter what specialty you have, you’ll all be paid the same!

Page 253 Line 10-18: Govt sets value of Doctor’s time, profession, judgment etc. Literally value of humans.

Page 265 Sec 1131: Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries.

Page 268 Sec 1141: Federal Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

Page 272 SEC. 1145: TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS – Cancer patients – welcome to rationing!

Page 280 Sec 1151: The Govt will penalize hospitals for whatever Govt deems preventable re-admissions.

Page 298 Lines 9-11: Doctors, treat a patient during initial admission that results in a re-admission -Govt will penalize you.

Page 317 L 13-20: PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Doctors what/how much they can own!

Page 317-318 lines 21-25, 1-3: PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand.

Page 321 2-13: Hospitals have opportunity to apply for exception BUT community input is required. Can u say ACORN?!!

Page 335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339: Govt mandates establishment of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing.

Page 341 Lines 3-9: Govt has authority to disqualify Medicare Advance Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing people into Govt plan.

Page 354 Sec 1177: Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs people! Unbelievable!

Page 379 Sec 1191: Govt creates more bureaucracy – Tele-health Advisory Committee. Can you say HC by phone?

Page 425 Lines 4-12: Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life patients.

Page 425 Lines 17-19: Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney. Mandatory!

Page 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3: Govt provides approved list of end of life resources, guiding you in death. (assisted suicide)

Page 427 Lines 15-24: Govt mandates program for orders for end of life. The Govt has a say in how your life ends.

Page 429 Lines 1-9: An “advanced care planning consultant” will be used frequently as patients health deteriorates.

Page 429 Lines 10-12: “advanced care consultation” may include an ORDER for end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOVT!

Page 429 Lines 13-25: The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.

Page 430 Lines 11-15: The Govt will decide what level of treatment you will have at end of life!

Page 469: Community Based Home Medical Services = Non profit organizations. Hello, ACORN Medical Services here!!?

Page 472 Lines 14-17: PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORIGINATION. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based organization. Like ACORN?

Page 489 Sec 1308: The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage?

Page 494-498: Govt will cover Mental Health Services including defining, creating, and rationing those services.

Senator, I guarantee that I personally will do everything possible to inform patients and my fellow physicians about the dangers of the proposed bills you and your colleagues are debating.

Respectfully,

Stephen E Fraser MD

 
Things like that happen, even in the best systems. Here in the UK we have had had a number of cases where people have either gone to a private hospital and paid or have gone abroad for treatment.

We had some very long waiting lists for operations until this government brought in performance tables, the trouble with that is that you feel it is more like a merry-go-round where you are whisked in, cut up and sent out, just to reduce the list. Not because they want to make you better, just reduce the list.

We are living in enlightened, affluent (if your are a banker) times, so surely a civilised society can arrange for their less well off members can receive medical treatment without having to sell a kidney to pay for it.

Hi shyiskrazy2, sorry, you posted whilst I was writing and I have just seen it.

There certainly seems to be a lot to be worried about. The government wants to do a lot of snooping such as pages 22, 58, 59 and 195. This appears a little high handed, as is the Govt committee that decides what treatments you get which seems, on paper, to be draconian as is page 29. Although I would say that, having a woman in the UK demanding and getting IVF fertility treatment is a little over the top and in those cases I would want someone to ration health care. Oh I forgot to mention that the woman had six children already.

The fact that you treat people who come in from abroad is cool. I can see that US citizens could get upset that they are paying whilst others do not but the reality is that it would probably cost more to collect than they would receive.

More chilling is the end of life stuff. We don't have this, we have to go to Switzerland, so only the rich can afford to die with dignity. I guess if it were supplied by the State there would have to be quite a lot of bureaucracy involved here as well.

As with all these laws, sometimes they read bad but turn out to work well in real life whereas others seem benign yet turn out to be the most insidious.

I guess the Govt is trying not to present a blank cheque to the masses so that the Treasury coffers start draining like a broken dam.

Maybe a rewrite would not go amiss.

We live in interesting times.

 
ok first, what you have quoted there is not the bill, it's someone else's interpretation of that. i sincerely doubt that obama is suggesting the government have access to everyone's bank accounts and i'd be wary of what you have just quoted.

health care by phone- yes, it works. over here we have NHS direct which is a phone service run by the NHS. you ring up and you can talk to a doctor and if its an emergency they put you through to 999 and if its not they talk you through what you should do. NHS direct saves the government millions of pounds in unnecessary "emergency" treatment and has been the pinnacle of the UKs response to swine flu.

secondly- no GOVERNMENT would tell you how to be cared for. the government would have outlines of procedures and options of care for you that a DOCTOR would carry out, a doctor who knows the extent of your illness or medical history and can make an informed decision on how to treat you- though some actions such as euthanasia/abortion would be dictated by the law- as they already are.

thirdly, as for the government having a say in how your life ends, doesn't it already? correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't suicide illegal? and plus, their say doesn't mean that that's how it actually happens. it just means they have some options for you to choose from which you can always choose to ignore.

 

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